Daisho Con

Wow Kara...you put that so much more eloquently than I would have.

But yes, I was going to say the same thing. Beauty doesn't need to be "created" , just appreciated. To use a seemingly appropriate cliché : beauty is in the eye of the beholder

md wrote:However, this exact set of circumstances, with all the patterns and nuances inherent in it, seems like an odd answer to the equation of life.

If I were to roll a set of ten ten-sided dice, and all of the dice were to all display sevens (7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7), I would probably think that was significant. If all of the dice were to display the numbers in incremental sequence (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9), I would probably think that was significant too. Still, I can't help but note that the probability of these results isn't any less than, let's say, rolling (5 9 3 1 7 4 7 3 2 6).

And that's the issue. I don't find it significant that the universe occurs the way it did. The dice were rolled, and someone who believes in design has declared that the results were designed, when in fact it was the sequence that just happened to... happen. If we rolled a different sequence, a design-minded philosopher would probably declare that set as "intended" also, regardless of probablility. The universe has rolled a random sequence, and that is the sequence that you declare to be significant.

Not that I believe that our existence is quite as random. Our appearance and existence is due to different factors, such as climate, sunshine, force of gravity et cetera. Instead of starting with one definite roll of dice with a limited amount of dice, we start with a huge dice pool and keep re-rolling our failures until the success pool amounts to something significant. We don't need a designer to pick up the dice and turn them to a set position. The natural processes of the universe are constantly rolling dice for us.

Were discussing two different kinds of Beauty. the beauty of a system that works flawlessly is (in my eyes) far greater than the beauty of any art. The fact that we have yet to encounter a glitch in reality leads me to believe that there must be some form of divine creation. That said, explaining a truly deepset belief to people who require proof is impossible. I do "know" that the universe was created. I can't explain how I know, but I trust my intuition. That said this is an argument that cannot work in the emotionless void that is the internet. That said, I'm tempted to believe life was created by a different force than the universe. The universe is perfect, life has so many flaws it scares me, but perhaps we just haven't finished yet. Evolution states that we aren't done yet so out current imprfections can be solved.

Either way it turns out, I don't think that we will ever know for sure given the fact that our own thoughts betray us as they are a component of the system as a whole. We could come close, but ultimately we will be full of ingrown biases since we only see the world through the narrow window of our senses. On that note, even though I will keep my beliefs and assumptions, I don't really want to know for sure. Contemplating these things and trying to find that which I can't is really the fun part in my mind. As long as I am a good person, I feel no reason to commit eternally to one idea, belief, or answer. My experiences have led me to my conclusions, but I'm always open to changing said conclusions.

Look I am not one for a debate, I kinda find them exhausting but I do want you guys to know where I am coming from. I am a Christian and I do believe there is a God. Too much in my life has happened in my life that he helped me pull through for me to believe other wise. Heck I shouldn't be even alive right now with all that has happened from my mother sexual abusing me when I was like 2 to dealing with my Dad's constant depression taking out on my brother and I to my ex trying to molest me. I believe that if I didn't have God in my life right now, I would have seriously killed myself cause I wouldn't have been able to handle all that pain.
But having God in my life, he gave me the strength to make it through this life and get over all that has happened making me the srong person I am today.
So yes I do believe there is a God.

Just tossing in my two cents, no, I do not believe that there is a god. I have a lot of trouble believing that there is a/multiple higher beings that ultimately control our lives. I don't believe in an afterlife, as much as I would like to. I think that belief in something is more than what you think consciously, and I've tried to believe in so many things that I couldn't, it only makes sense that it's because my subconscious DOESN'T believe them. I can't convince myself that something other than "you die and just cease to exist" happens. The thought seems a little scary at first really, but when I look deeper, if you cease to exist, to think, you don't feel. So you can't feel lonely sitting there by yourself, dead. I think that the afterlife is the invention of people being afraid of the idea of being lonely, and it dulls the idea of life because if you live after life, doesn't that make death pointless? I think you only get one chance at life and you make your own future, if you die with regrets you're screwed, you can't go back and try again. There is no punishment and wish granting worlds like hell and heaven, if you die with your life lived to the fullest, you get to go with a smile on your face and that's your reward, and if you die with regrets then that's how you're punished. Death itself is 'judgment day', when you decide weather or not you lived to your full potential and had lots of fun. And if there is a heaven for good people, is it really a heaven? If you live your life restraining yourself and not having fun so as to get into this heaven, I think that is the biggest possible sin you could commit. I live on the grounds that life is what you make it, and you should probably make it as fun as possible.

Bah. As an agnostic, I wash my hands of this whole affair. Let the stress of not knowing kill the whole lot of you 10 years early.

It is my personal belief that there is a god, while i can respect your decison to reject that there is a god. I dont believe it gives others the right to harass those who do believe, and i am not just refering to christains. this goes for judiasm, muslims and other religions. Also your rejection does not give you the right to force your nonbelief on others. In this country we have equal rights to believe or not believe.

Belldandy4087 wrote:It is my personal belief that there is a god, while i can respect your decison to reject that there is a god. I dont believe it gives others the right to harass those who do believe, and i am not just refering to christains. this goes for judiasm, muslims and other religions. Also your rejection does not give you the right to force your nonbelief on others. In this country we have equal rights to believe or not believe.

your opinion needs to swing both ways my friend