Daisho Con

Alhon wrote:@ 1stAgent: Where have I ever mentioned I hate gay people? I don't believe I've said that anywhere on here...

When did this become about intolerance? People have said that they support Gay Marriage, I said I don't. I gave my reasons, and you refuse to accept them. I can't say anything more, because there's nothing more to say. I am Christian, God's Word says it is a sin, therefore I do not condone it. That's all the reasoning I need, and if you can't accept that, then I'm sorry.

Part of being a Geek is being outcast for your personal likes/dislikes and beliefs.... and here I see it happening again. Actually, it's pretty funny in an ironic sense.

Okay so we can't disagree because everyone has to be huggy-uggy carebears suddenly? Personally, you're entitled to your beliefs, but don't hide behind a mask of "BUT WHAT I SAY IS FINE, BECAUSE WE'RE IN A GROUP." It's wrong to manipulate people's sensibilities like that, and you sir, are doing it wrong.

Alhon wrote:@SpittinWheelie: Close. It's not so much the sanctity of marriage, as the word "Sanctify" means "To Make Holy". Marriage is not one of the Sacraments (at least by my Lutheran teachings) as Marriage neither gives Forgiveness nor was instituted by Christ (it was instituted by the Father at the garden of Eden).

Just a quick terminology thing.

Anyway, it's more the idea that Marriage is a glorious thing that God gave to a man and his wife. Marriage between two men or two women is a perversion of the beauty of Marriage, kinda like comparing Star Wars to the infamous Turkish Star Wars knockoff (Go watch on youtube. ) Using this metaphor, legalizing Gay marriage would be similar to saying that Turkish Star Wars was just as important, just as impressive, and just as award-worthy as George Lucas' Star Wars.

At least, I think that makes sense.... my brain is kinda fried right now because I'm trying to make sense of object serialization in C# right now. ><

You're comparing a piece of film dribble to a union between two men that is essentially no different then that of a heterosexual marriage? I know plenty of older gay and lesbian couples that have more fulfilling lives, romantically, sexually, and otherwise that have more beautiful marriages then many heterosexual marriages I have encountered. What you're saying, right now, is that a gay couple would be unfit as a couple. How?

Explain, in detail, why two men and two women cannot lead the same lives as a heterosexual couple.

And you, being a smart man can easily see that it is not a Christian/Muslim/Jewish/etc concern what other people do in their homes, or how they choose to share a partnership that can oft times be considered more beautiful then anything in the world. Two people, no matter what gender, deserve to be together, in a loving relationship. It is not a christian's place to butt their nose into anything I do with my potential future husband in the comfort of my own home.

I am a christian, as hardcore as I am willing to be. I practice my faith, I practice what I preach, and the message that I try to send is that no matter how much I profess to hate something, I will still care for it as I do myself. I refuse to have someone stand up and tell me that my practices, with my relations are any different or even as abominable as what straight people can do to each other.

EDIT: Before you even respond, I refuse to carry on this argument, I have made my point, and my piece was spoken. I understand that you'll disagree with me, and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but I am not going to be told I have to respect it. It is not my nature to be agreeable when it comes to my personal freedoms, and disregarding someone else's in this matter is highly, highly insulting. If you truly want to be respected as a well rounded, varied Christian, I suggest reading more into Christ's message of hope and love versus cynicism and sex. I am tired of arguing this point, and I refuse to delegate further on it. Hope and love are needed in this time, and I believe that the doors that will open society to a truly diversified, modern culture would be to allow marriage as a universal right, rather then basing it's definition upon sole christian beliefs. As Christians, we are presented with many obstacles in our time, and this could be a large hurdle for society to move forward. As much as I love my country, too often we are caught in what could and could not be. Gay marriage does not mean the end of marriage as a societal norm, rather the evolution of a new age of love. The dawning of a truly Christian nation could start with marriage being eligible to all sexual orientations and genders. Christ's message is clear to me.

Okay so we can't disagree because everyone has to be huggy-uggy carebears suddenly? Personally, you're entitled to your beliefs, but don't hide behind a mask of "BUT WHAT I SAY IS FINE, BECAUSE WE'RE IN A GROUP." It's wrong to manipulate people's sensibilities like that, and you sir, are doing it wrong.

I didn't say anything along the lines of "We're in a group". My joke at the end is that the nature of a Geek is to be outcast from society, and here, I am being outcast from the Geeks due to my religious beliefs. I found a bit of funny irony in it. I'm still not sure where you saw the Huggy-uggy stuff.

You're comparing a piece of film dribble to a union between two men that is essentially no different then that of a heterosexual marriage?

No, I'm comparing a piece of film dribble to something that God has deemed a Perversion. Please see the passages posted on the previous page.

I know plenty of older gay and lesbian couples that have more fulfilling lives, romantically, sexually, and otherwise that have more beautiful marriages then many heterosexual marriages I have encountered. What you're saying, right now, is that a gay couple would be unfit as a couple. How?

Sad that many heterosexual couples can't get along, but Homosexuality has been condemned by God as a perversion, thus unfit as a couple. Again, see last page.

Explain, in detail, why two men and two women cannot lead the same lives as a heterosexual couple.

They can lead their lives perfectly. However, continuing to persist in a Homosexual relationship is an unrepentant sin, because God has deemed it a perversion. See the passages on the previous page.

Sound like a broken record yet?

And you, being a smart man can easily see that it is not a Christian/Muslim/Jewish/etc concern what other people do in their homes, or how they choose to share a partnership that can oft times be considered more beautiful then anything in the world.

You see, the difference is that as a Christian, out of love I point out an unrepented sin so that my brother may repent and be saved. I have pointed out the sin, so my job is done. I hope and pray that he sees the truth and that God leads him to repent.

I practice my faith, I practice what I preach, and the message that I try to send is that no matter how much I profess to hate something, I will still care for it as I do myself.

That's beautiful and wonderful, and in no way can I fault you for that. I may hate homosexuality, for it is sin, but I do not hate the people. They are human, and sinful beings as I am. I love them alongside the rest of humanity.

It is not my nature to be agreeable when it comes to my personal freedoms, and disregarding someone else's in this matter is highly, highly insulting.

As a fellow Christian, is it truely a Personal Freedom if it's a sin? Something to think about.

If you truly want to be respected as a well rounded, varied Christian, I suggest reading more into Christ's message of hope and love versus cynicism and sex.

My response? John 3:16

God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

It doesn't get any more loving than that.

Christ's message is clear to me.

Please show me, in Scripture, that Christ condoned homosexual relationships, and declared them not to be sin. If you can prove me wrong by the Word, I will step down.


So there's where we stand. I believe I have made my stance, and if you simply wish to resort to personal attacks, then I will refuse to respond to them. To paraphrase Martin Luther before the Diet of Worms,

Unless I am convinced by the Holy Scriptures, and not just Human Reason, for it can fail, that Homosexuality is not a sin, then by both the Holy Scriptures and my Conscience, I cannot, and I WILL not, recant my position, since it is neither safe nor right for a man to act against his conscience. Here I stand, for I can do no other. God Help me.

It's just so very tiring to argue about. When I know in my heart that God still has a place for me, and loves me.

God loves his children, the message of Christianity is not about what is and isn't a perversion, for if we referred to the bible as a literal interpretation, we would be blinded by the things we cannot do. In these dark times, it is not prudent to regard someone based on their sexuality and make excuses for how you feel about them, based on how He may or may not feel.

My God is a loving God, who exactly is yours?

The truth is, there is no Gay Agenda. There is only one option regarding the future of equal rights in this country and those involved. Someday, there will be a person that steps forth and proclaims that he is the savior of mankind, he will judge us based not on the sins we have committed, but on the actions that have defined us. There is only one option in these dark times, and that is to spread love. If the scripture says that God loves us one moment, and yet can contradict itself by saying that certain people are a perversion to humanity, I would rather follow the voice of a loving God, then that of someone who deems me and 10% of this Earth unfit.

I will not discuss God in this thread further. If you wish to continue, send me a private message. This thread is being derailed and dismantled by arguing and dismay. I will not have it.

My original post was meant to be funny, as I didn't think anyone actually believed that there was a Gay Agenda in the first place. If there is, I'm being left out of the loop, just like you.

One last point.

Someday, there will be a person that steps forth and proclaims that he is the savior of mankind, he will judge us based not on the sins we have committed, but on the actions that have defined us.

No. Someday, Christ will return with trumpets blasting, and he WILL judge us on the Sins we have committed, for even by breaking 1 law, we were deemed unworthy of heaven.

But here is the key.

The central message of Christianity is not love. It is the Cross, the death of Jesus Christ our Lord who forgave our sins with his innocent death on the cross, and his glorious Resurrection from the dead 3 days later. And it is through HIS blood, and HIS actions that we are redeemed and sanctified. NOTHING we can do is enough, because He DID IT ALL.

It is glorious that the Holy Spirit has led you to faith, and as a brother in Christ, I pray all the more fervently for you out of love for you and for our Lord.

Okay I just want to applaud Yushi for his point although I don't completely see eye to eye with the whole thing. I do believe being gay is a sin, but I am not about to force that any one because that's not what were commanded to do. Anyway Yushi gets the most important part. Love.

Love and acceptance for who you are is the basis of the Christian life yet so many Christians miss that point. They get so hung up on the legalistic rule side, just like the religious leaders did back in Jesus's time. They got so hung up on the fact that Jesus was eating with the tax gathers or healing the lepers on the Sabbath, who were both in the same standing as how most judgmental Christians see homosexuals now- the untouchables and the sinners.

The thing is Jesus was able to look past their sins and truly love them for who they were. And thats how we are supposed to act today, following his example.

Not judge them because we have no right to do so, I am not going to pull out a bunch of scripture but there is one that sticks out. When Jesus was talking to the disciples he tells them "do not try to remove the speck of dust from your brothers eye before removin the plank out of your own." Basically don't judge someone without looking at the sin in your own life first.

So why can't us Christians look past all the laws and comandments and do exactly What Jesus Would Do, love everyone as they are.

There have been a couple times where this thread has teetered close to the brink of uncivil, but for the most part I have to applaud everyone for a good debate.

Though I personally don't have any problem with gay marriage, I completely respect the point that Alhon is trying to get across. Those that regard at the scripture in a certain way will always have a problem with gay marriage.

In my opinion, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their belief on the matter and, like everything in life, there is no cut-and-dry answer. Where I have a problem is with the people who try and push anti-gay viewpoints on other people. The same can be said from the other side of the spectrum if those who lead a homosexual lifestyle push their viewpoints on others.

It boils down to this:

People's lives are there own. It is their choice on how they want to dress, religious preference, political stance, and to bring this closer to our debate: who they want to marry.

Though some may not agree with homosexual marriage, it's not anyone's right to decide whether it is good or bad. Who are we to tell others how they should live?

The same goes for trying to tell people against homosexuality that they should accept it. Who are we to tell others what they should accept?

In the end, your personal beliefs are your personal beliefs. We shouldn't try to push them on other people, or dictate their lives based on ours.

Alhon wrote:One last point.

Someday, there will be a person that steps forth and proclaims that he is the savior of mankind, he will judge us based not on the sins we have committed, but on the actions that have defined us.

No. Someday, Christ will return with trumpets blasting, and he WILL judge us on the Sins we have committed, for even by breaking 1 law, we were deemed unworthy of heaven.

But here is the key.

The central message of Christianity is not love. It is the Cross, the death of Jesus Christ our Lord who forgave our sins with his innocent death on the cross, and his glorious Resurrection from the dead 3 days later. And it is through HIS blood, and HIS actions that we are redeemed and sanctified. NOTHING we can do is enough, because He DID IT ALL.

It is glorious that the Holy Spirit has led you to faith, and as a brother in Christ, I pray all the more fervently for you out of love for you and for our Lord.

But funny enough your own religion claims that it is no ones right but God's to judge others. We mortals are to accept all with love and care. Despite their beliefs or practices. Doesn't mean you have to condone what they do.. however God's own teachings dictate that it is immoral and wrong to manipulate the free will of others... since God himself does not do this. I find it ironic that you think it is ok to make laws against gay marriage considering some of the foundation of Christian belief clearly states that you should not make people think a certain way, but instead encourage them by example. I love how many Christians just choose to ignore this.

Alhon's done a good job, here. I may vehemently disagree with him on almost every point he made, but he was civil, unlike many from his side in these discussions. Therefore, I will say only two things:

1) Regarding the gay marriage thing--like many others, I have yet to see a clear, rational reason to ban gays and lesbians from marriage. As a happily 10-year-married heterosexual, I assure you that the legalization of gay marriage in some states didn't cause me to run off and join the sausage-fest. They are people, same as you and me, and the ick factor and Bible arguments are so fallacious as to be absurd; therefore, leave the gays alone, and let them be happy (gay ).

2) I will only reply to the last couple things Alhon said re: Christianity. One, the awaited return has been 2000 years coming--at some point, even the puppy watching the door for it's master gives up. Time for you guys to drop that message. Two, I never asked for substitution sacrifice. If your god (if it exists) has a problem with my actions, let it confront me and punish me. I don't expect others to suffer for me, and anyone who thinks such a thing is okay needs to get their ethics meter re-calibrated. Your god's action wasn't love, it was bizarre, and Christ's little wing-ding wasn't much of a suffering deal, since he "knew" he would rise again. I could handle a few days suffering if I knew I would live forever, too.

Anyway, no insult intended here. I do respect your general attitude, Alhon--you handled yourself well. Christians (and other strict religionists) just need to learn a bit more about humanity, religion, etc., so we can all get along, and stop denying each other equality because of a book written thousands of years ago by goat-herders who thought offering their daughters for gang-rape was okay (Genesis, btw).

-alex

To be honest, I don't know whether to be flattered by the compliment or utterly insulted by your comparison of my entire way of life to rapist shepherds.


The first point, I will not respond to. As I've stated before, I've already laid out my opinions and my reasoning for them. I ask that you respect that, even though it's not the majority opinion on this board.

But the second point... hoo boy.

Here's the deal. I can tell by a few of your claims that you don't know Christianity much, if at all. I'm not trying to be insulting either here, but I'm going to explain just a few things, then let it drop. I don't have the time or the stamina to go through another interrogation.

1) The Last Coming. We've waited faithfully 2000 years. Do you seriously think that we're going to stop because we arbitrarily decide it's been too long? The Lord said "A thousand years are like a day" (paraphrased from Proverbs). So, it's been 2 days. I think we can wait a little more.

2) Christ's Sacrifice. My God has a problem with everyone, it's called Sin. However, because he LOVED us so much, he chose to DIE IN OUR PLACE. I see the ultimate sacrifice, the most love a person can have. One sacrificing their lives for another... I'm kinda shaken just typing these words.
I pray that the Holy Spirit leads you to faith so that you won't have to be confronted and punished like you seem to want.

And the Suffering? Yes, he rose 3 days later in glory, but that does not stop the fact that Christ DIED. From a CRUCIFIXION. The MOST PAINFUL way possible to die, as well as suffering the entire torments of hell for all mankind for eternity within the span of a few hours. Mighty men have gone insane just from a tiny Chinese Water Torture. This was infinite times worse. And he did it out of Love. You may think it's bizzare, but it's the utmost in beauty to me, because he did it to save me.


So thank you for the compliment - I try to keep my head as much as possible - but I must say that you're a bit out of line. Besides, your line about the goat herders? You SERIOUSLY need to study up on Genesis a bit more, because that was the worst interpretation I think is possible. I know what section you're mentioning, and you've missed the point entirely. Swing and a miss.


As I said before, I'm not in the mood to be interrogated again, so I'm going to stop feeding the troll.

Here's my take on the issue. The real trouble is use of the word 'marriage' in our country's vernacular. A marriage is the religious ceremony where two (or more) people swear vows of love to each other before whatever deity it is that they worship. What is achieved legally by marriage? The right to combine assets, being able to visit each other in the hospital, decisions about where assets go after one partner dies, so on and so forth. What I am describing is not a marriage, but a civil union. It is not right (or constitutional) that the government at the state or Federal level to be allowed to discriminate against a homosexual couple, and deny them these rights that a heterosexual couple can receive for being heterosexual. That said, the government should not be granting marriages, but civil unions. Remove the term marriage from the vernacular and from the proceedings of the government, and the issue resolves itself.

Let the theologians debate whether gay marriage is to be allowed in their respective religions. In the words of Thomas Jefferson:

"Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle."

I am of the belief that our nation should be like the EU in this respect. Most every nation here in the EU requires two ceremonies (at least, if you want two) for 'marriage.' One civil, at the local Rathaus (courthouse), one religious at the Kirche (church)/Mosque/Temple.

I feel that this video does a fairly good, albeit satirical, summary of things:


[web]http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-black-john-c-reilly-and-many-more-from-fod-team-jack-black-craig-robinson-john-c-reilly-and-rashida-jones[/web]

Wow, apparently you misconstrued my remarks entirely. First, I'm no troll. I do get tired of backwards-thinking people using their book to hurt other people, so no, I will not respect such opinions, any more than I respect the opinions of racists or misogynists.

Two, I know a great deal about Christianity, having spent 20 years involved in it, from various belief systems. Accusing me of a lack of knowledge just because I don't agree with YOUR interpretation is a fallacy (often called "no true Scotsman").

Three, I didn't compare you to the people of the OT. They, like many cultures and groups from thousands of years ago, believed in and did some crazy stuff, and wrote stories, myths, and legends to support their beliefs.

Whether or not the incidents in Genesis 19 occurred, the sad fact remains that many extremist Christians quote the story as one way of denying gays their equal rights--they just fail to look at the other parts, including this "one good man, Lot" offering his daughters to be gang-raped, then later impregnating both of them. This story likely didn't occur; it was just an explanation of the origin of the two lesser tribes that his daughters helped found. But the idea that the Bible-god found Lot to be good, considering his actions in Sodom, is scary to say the least.

As I said, I have looked into the Bible extensively. It is just one more collection of stories, some possibly true, but many quite fantastic. If you choose to believe in the stories, then I won't hold it against you any more than I hold a Wiccan's beliefs in any particular pantheon against them. But when you use this book to hurt others, then it is you who are out of line, not me.

I doubt you will respond to this, but I still felt it needed to be said. I will close by simply stating what I said before, and which you failed to counter: The idea of substitution sacrifice is wrong. You should be willing to pay for your own crimes--or better yet, just have your god forgive you, without the need for a blood sacrifice. That is nothing but a holdover from the ancient cultures. Forgiveness can be achieved without blood. Especially from a deity.

-alex

Wow, I just noticed that you pinged me for negative karma, on top of the insults. Well-done, you've proven my point. Pity.

Alhon wrote:
And the Suffering? Yes, he rose 3 days later in glory, but that does not stop the fact that Christ DIED. From a CRUCIFIXION. The MOST PAINFUL way possible to die, as well as suffering the entire torments of hell for all mankind for eternity within the span of a few hours. Mighty men have gone insane just from a tiny Chinese Water Torture. This was infinite times worse. And he did it out of Love. You may think it's bizzare, but it's the utmost in beauty to me, because he did it to save me.

I take issue with crucifixion being the most painful way to die. In all honesty yes it takes a long time, and yes it hurts. But there are far more painful ways to die. And to quote Jaffar, "There are so many things worse than death."

The fact is, if God sees homosexuality as a sin, so be it. God still gave the right to make our own choices and it is not the place of the government to restrict things based upon a purely religious sentiment. There is no other reason within our current society to argue against gay marriage.

I'd honestly love to talk to you about my religous beliefs some time. They are purely logical, but they don't belong on this forum.

I would respond, but this isn't a debate anymore. It's a trolling attempt. Not even worth my breath.

I wasn't expecting you to respond. You made your beliefs clear, and I was willing to let it go at that. Why you feel the need to insult me yet again is a mystery, though. Still, I'm used to it--I've dealt with many like you over the last 14 years.

A note, okay? Just because someone disagrees with your religion doesn't make them a troll. I at no time insulted you, called for an end to your religion, or anything else. I'm sorry you can't handle criticism, but it doesn't make me a troll or a "flame-baiter" as you Karma-dinged me for. Petty, that.

Have a good day, sir.